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hello scientist it's july 27 2022 and here's the replay of updates from the lab a twitter space for osmosis the leading decentralized cosmos exchange currently we're here every other wednesday at 1 pm eastern time 5 pm utc but for the most up-to-date schedule follow at osmosis zone on twitter join us live to ask a question on air or submit your best question on twitter by replying to my question request tweet thread before each space today's episode features sunny agarwal federico of the osmosis grants program me kevin berry and two grantees caddo payments infrastructure for web 3 and ecostake climate positive validator and maker of the restake app let's listen yeah i guess as people get back into whatever life activities i feel like things like this are gonna happen well whatever that's part of just contact i haven't been on a roller coaster for two years folks uh probably longer so um cool well uh it's good to be back we we took we're off for a couple weeks and or yeah you were in cc in in paris and a lot going on yup yup yup lots going on great talk by the way i really uh if anybody hasn't had the chance to see it the the what you're talking about uh the future of uh i guess interchange app chain future was uh very enlightening i i really enjoyed it yeah it was um really fun to sort of talk about like app at ecc talked about uh app chains it's not just like you know a lot of the cool functionalities you can do with app chains that you can't do with like on generalized chains and kind of like showing examples of how would you make use of some of them on osmosis um and then the next day was the nebula summit uh where you know got uh talked a bit about like osmosis mev and mev and like you know just how osmosis approaches different types of mev um you know there's like you know i think we've talked often a lot of times about like special encryption and stuff so you know that's how we like mitigate as much of the bad maybe as possible a lot like eliminate front running uh when you know no one can read other people's transactions and the mempool can't really front run them but you know there exists like other types of meb other than that as well right so you have like um you know you know once like something like mars is on chain no you can have like liquidations for example and that's something you want to be able to do or there's al the biggest thing is just like crosstalk is arbitrage right so like you know prices change on external markets whether it's on like centralized exchanges or other dexes um and you you know or even just you want to be like the first to arb those you know our prices back to the you know global external price or um or even if like on the chain you know some of the pools are out of out of sync and there's like a circular arb that can be done being the first to sort of arb that um so you know there's like these like arbitrage and liquidation kind of stuff there's like you know not not in you know at least we would classify this as like not harmful mev it's kind of actually good for the protocol you know you want your prices to be in sync you want uh you know you want liquidations to be happening fast so you know to protect the health of the lending protocols um and so like you know the question is like how do we like internalize that mev opportunity into the protocol so uh anatoly had a good tweet like a couple uh weeks ago where he was like um the value of like a l1 blockchain is like the mev it can capture and you know that i've been thinking with that one for a while because i was like yeah well you know why is like you know one of the big selling points of an app chain that is like currently when you're building an app on an l1 you're basically leaking all of that value uh to the l1 when instead you know you should you could actually be capturing that uh in the protocol so you know i guess one of the big pushes that we're pushing for right now is like this idea of like yes let's mitigate bad mev but let's then internalize good mebs so how can we like take some of yeah how can we take a lot of this mev that exists on the chain like and like you know have that be captured as protocol revenue so yeah that's kind of yeah i was just saying i'm like you know the talking nebula so i'm just kind of just like introducing that idea yeah i saw that video as well and also again insightful i i feel like some of the terminology because we we have it was invented for ethan for a proof of work world is like there might be some adapting here just because we don't really use the term minor um that often i think people get it but you know this is like validator extracted value or like you said proposer i don't know is it could you maybe give a um uh us a bit of a like a breakdown to what mev is for people who may not be familiar so mev is um you know it stands for minor extractable value or uh you know i prefer like proposer extractable value and how we would define it is it's the it's basically the value that can be extracted through the powers of the block proposer and like currently the there's a number of things that the block the proposer of a specific block has you know sort of full control over so they get to choose for example today well later choose things like um you know uh whose votes get included in the block and stuff let's ignore that for now we're focused on like transaction layer stuff so what are the things they can do they can choose what goes into a block and they can choose what order it goes into a block so they have this ability to do basically control both inclusion and ordering and the idea is like by controlling conclu inclusion and ordering they have like all these like abilities to do certain things so like you know one of them is like sandwich attacks right so sandwich is you know when you make a trade um you know someone can make their trade uh let's say you're gonna buy like a certain amount of osmo from the market uh well what someone could do to sandwich you is they could you know place a trade right before you to buy osmo then put your trade and then they sell osmo right after you so they basically get to like you know they can make you get a bad price and so this is why we have like slippage bounds and everything on on the blockchain but you know these slippage bounds you know you have to someone can get sandwiched up to the slippage bounce if you set like one percent slippage then you have the ability to basically be like you know there's the mev opportunity mean is that like the proposer can like specifically place the transaction in such a way that they can extract that like one percent of your trade value um that's a that's a pretty clear visualization that the slippage doesn't just go off into the ether or whatever into nowhere it goes into the proposer's pocket exactly um so this is like an example of you know i would call this an example of bad mev like this like front running and sandwiching so you know this kind of gets solved with things like threshold encryption so the idea is you want to make sure that everything in the mempool is fully encrypted so no one can sort of read if no one can read your transaction no one knows what so to do this sort of sandwich attack someone has to be able to read your transaction and then make the proposal has to read your transaction and then be able to place you know their transaction right before yours and right after yours so this is like a transaction ordering sort of abuse but if no one can read the transactions they kind of lose the ability to do that so we solve we solve a large class of like nev by doing that but then there's also like you know another example would be like of mev would be like the liquidation so liquidations are like you know the protocol is like you know the price of osmo was going down people took it on leverage or something and you need to be able to liquidate people's uh cdps in a lending protocol and so to do that uh someone has to actually trigger the liquidation and usually there's like a reward given to whoever triggers the liquidation because you know you want incentive for you know someone to be uh triggering liquidations and so you know there's often a big fight like you know battle to be oh who's going to be the one to trigger the liquidation and so the protocol should basically say like hey why don't we just like auction off the ability to trigger the liquidation or auction off the first spot in a block where people can do all this kind of stuff and it's not really like front running because it's not you don't really care you're not trying to read other people's transactions you're it's not even with threshold encryption this sort of mev sort of is still exists and so the idea is like how can we make it so instead of the block proposer capturing all of that value and choosing which transaction gets to be the first in the block why don't we make it so the you know the blockchain protocol the code gets to decide who you know we allow an auction to take place on the blockchain that says like hey we're gonna auction off the right to be the first transaction in the block so instead of all the revenue going to just the block proposer it should get sent to like all osmo stakers basically and you know so that way we know we make sure that the validators are not just capturing it all for themselves but like actually sharing it with all stakers okay that that makes sense if you you bring it back to the the tweet was it anatoly i think you said who was talking about the um yeah how if l1 uh app chains leak value through these sorts of things and it could they could potentially sort of recirculate it or bring it up bring it back to stakers like that that part of it definitely makes sense when just okay this last uh small whatever smooth brain question here um what what what is what exactly is a liquidation um a liquidation is like like a lending when you have a lending protocol you have to put down collateral and you have to like you know put an excess of collateral so you have to like put down you know a minimum let's say of 150 of collateral and in order to bar so let's say you put down150 worth of osmo um and then you borrow a hundred dollars worth of you know usdc but the problem is that like if the value of arsenal dips below the hundred fifty dollars you're sort of considered um you know you you've dipped below the minimum collateral ratio and so someone has to like tell the protocol that and what the protocol call will do it it'll take your osmo and it will sell it in order to uh recover dollars in order to like pay back the debt of the system uh okay gotcha and so this this will be a way for the the protocol to to take over that process rather than a block proposer per se yeah either the pro yeah so there's a combination it's of like you know some things we might uh have the protocol do automatically so one of the things that we have in cosmos chains that aren't in most chains is this like idea of begin blockers and end blockers where the protocol you know we can run self executing code at the beginning of every single block right and so this is like uh you know so you know if it's very cheap to like you know see oh what are things that need to be liquidated or see like hey what are um uh like arbitrage opportunities for example you know we can actually have that run in the chain by itself um otherwise the other option is you know some some of these like mev opportunities are either too expensive to calculate on chain or you know so what we'll do is then like say hey okay we'll let off trains like mev searchers is what they're called to like find these opportunities and let them bid to be the first in the block so it'll be a combination between like you know i would say like application specific mev uh you know uh like capture in protocol and then the auction system as well okay that that uh that makes sense so yeah i think that those uh those talks are they're very helpful to understand what yeah y'all have been working on and kind of what you're thinking is for the the not too distant future in terms of protocol development um do you have uh uh other updates or anything that you you want to share um yeah so i guess the main big updates um we're we are back on full steam ahead on like feature development so you know i i think as people i mentioned in some past spaces uh you know we were kind of taking like a pause for a little bit on new feature development and had been working a lot on just like a lot of um work like you know improving our test frameworks restarting the simulator um and just improving you know code quality and stuff so you know we spent you know about a month and a month and a half working on that uh and so you know we're back in a place where we're pretty happy with like sort of the state of a lot of the code base right now so kind of have now restarted a lot of the work on you know new features so the big one that we're working on right now is uh t-walks so time-rated average price oracles um and that will you know be so you can basically use the osmosis pools as price oracles or protocols like mars and membrane and all these kinds of things so so that's sort of like one of the big feature developments that we're working on um and then i'm sure as people may or may not have noticed but like uh there was like they've been sort of a series of spam attacks against the osmosis blockchain recently uh so one of them you know someone's been spamming transactions which is like fine but then also there was a situation where someone um created a lot of gauges uh trying to make and like uh distribution gauges to try to make the uh epoch like time take a little bit longer i mean it didn't really have a big effect on the epoch time right like it you know it went up to like you know the epoch time only took like seven minutes now but we we basically are you know want to make sure this doesn't turn into a bigger issue uh and so you know the spot we're planning on making a governance proposal to do a software upgrade sometime basically basically next week to add a fee for the creating of uh gauges so gauges are like the system that like distributes reward so you know if external incentives so when you like want to distribute you know an external incentive uh you create this gauge that then distributes it every day to the you know lps of pools and so just just we're gonna i think we're gonna plan on just charging like you know a 50 osmo fee or something just to create a gauge so that way you know if someone if so if there's a project or something trying to distribute external incentives they'll be fine create you know paying 50 osmo to do that but you know just to prevent these sort of spam attacks from happening so uh yeah so you know that's sort of a governance you know a software upgrade that i imagine will probably happen next week it's not you know we're just trying to keep this upgrade like as minimal as possible so you know we have a lot of other features that are in our like uh kind of have been developed but we're going to just like keep this upgrade just to fix this issue and then all a lot of these new features that have been developed we'll add them in in a you know larger upgrade probably at the beginning of august so just a little bit of timeline on some upcoming training chain upgrades that makes sense is as you're as you're uh you're all thinking about kind of how you plan to do upgrades in the future it has it changed or is it more just that like you're you're dealing with these things just as they come um yeah so like i mean on these like bigger upgrades you know we're we're definitely you know this is why we're not trying to like be like hey oh look we're doing an upgrade next week to solve this small thing let's like bring in a bunch of other you know let's try to you know we have all these like finished features let's like add them all into this upgrade as well because you know we definitely want to spend more time on like testing everything out making sure all these features are running on a test net uh stably for a while and stuff so um yeah so you know all these like big yeah so that's kind of you know our approach to like doing upgrades especially for features it has definitely changed um this this up and yeah like i said this upgrade is just meant to be very small and just all it does is add a fee for uh you know creating a new gauge so it's you know this upgrade is literally like you know code like actual logic wise it's like you know a couple lines of change yeah that makes sense not trying to lump everything in together every time you have a pressing need and i guess i'm just calling this out as it is it seems that what we're seeing is your um adjustments to the upgrade process in in action yeah you know that you're doing the testing that's why you're not rushing out or you know speeding through the the developments that we're expecting in you know the next month or so yeah which is great to hear yeah like we don't want to be like hey okay let's like you know what we want to do is like have a timeline that we like stick to and that's kind of what happened in the last up you know the the infinite v9 upgrade as well was like you know we had this whole amm refactor that we had this like timeline we wanted to do but then we like we like rushed out of we wanted to like get an upgrade out faster in order to add some of the like token factory and kosumosum support and then it was like oh well let's add you know we have this amm stuff that's sitting there done let's add that in as well but it's like no you know if we're if we're going to do a up you know an upgrade that's faster for like whatever reason like you know don't try to shove things into that right like be like hey okay here's this amm factor we know we were planning on releasing it in like you know a month or a month and a half because we wanted more testing on it don't try to don't try to shove it into a release just because you know just because there is a release that we can put it into like try to stick to the timelines that like we we set out initially yeah i i respect that and i it just to me it's you know good to see that thinking in in practice you know and and also helps to understand it as well because we we might have gotten a little bit spoiled with how fast the the cycle of upgrades was was happening over the past year i mean y'all were sprinting a lot so yeah okay well that's um that's certainly a lot i definitely saw many people knocking heads together trying to figure out how to solve these spam the the uh the gauge creation spam attacks um and uh it's good to hear that that you are looking for a uh a sort of a globalized solution so that'll be good oh one other thing i saw uh i heard there was a little bit of confusion about on like commonwealth and a couple of like different discussion threads was um about like how uh you know around the permissioned cosmos on contracts so we're going to write this up as well but just to share a little bit here is there so like some people there seem to be have been some confusions that like you know let's say for example once the apollo uh safe team like deploys their contracts on chain like you know will people have to make a governance proposal every time they want to create a new multi-sig and the answer is like no that would be insane uh what so a little how cosmosome works is it it's a little bit different than other uh you know smart contract systems like you know in ethereum so where in cosmos there's like two steps there's step one which is uploading code and step two which is instances of a contract and of a specific piece of code and so what is permissioned right now in osmosis cause of wasm is the uploading of new code and then when you upload code you actually have the option of setting like you know who can instantiate so there's you know there's sort of two options you can do like hey anyone can instantiate or you can say hey only this like white list of addresses or can instantiate or you could do hey this can only be a one-time instantiation so what that means is like let's say apollo uploads their multi-sig contract code it they would they would upload it as a anyone can instantiate so that way you know you upload the code one time but people can it's permissionless to then create instances of a multi-sig so you can go spin up more and more multisigs as much as you want um and so yeah so there's a yeah so just wanted to clear that up but meanwhile someone like i don't know mars or something you know when they upload their code they might they would probably make it so hey okay this is only a one-time instantiation so yeah so you know i think there was some concerns from some people around like hey you know does it make sense to put this project on osmosis because you know do we have to like make it doesn't make sense to have a governance proposal every time we need to instantiate something so just wanted to clear that up that you know that's not that's not how it works you can upload the code once but you can have it so it's permissionless uh uh instantiation of the code so we'll have like a proper write-up sort of explaining this out as well but yeah i just wanted to sort of share that on here as well no that's helpful uh for sure uh and and because because we haven't really seen um the you know full powers of uh cosmosome unfurled uh that this is this is relatively new still that uh i mean we have that people are looking to the ion dao uh as one instance of it and then um yeah like you said apollo uh and of course mars so that where it's imminent but yeah i feel like there's going to be some more education and and kind of understanding grappling with like yeah how this works so that'll be helpful um i just saw there was a question that i had that um i wanted to run by you about um these so your the osmosis has this thing where i just want to see if this is implemented now but as a mechanism where it's coming where the protocol charges more uh fees for arbitrage cycle transactions um what is that mechanism called and what is that is it functioning i don't know it is live and functioning right now i don't know what the mechanism is called i don't know that's a game but basically yeah what we look at is like oftentimes people make trade transactions that like have this like loop where like you start you start off with osmo and then you like trade into adam and then into usdc and then back into osmo and you end up with more osmo than you started because there was this like arbitrage opportunity so you know we can basically look in our chain and say look at the transaction say hey you know you're doing a trade where you're you're the token you end up with is the same as the token you started with there's no reason to do that unless you're doing an arbitrage loop so we might so we can detect that and say hey let's charge a a higher fee for that so that that's sort of what we do right now and you know it's honestly not a perfect system to be honest it's actually pretty easy to bypass that if you wanted to but it's you know a way of it solves it for our purposes right now at least right and i guess that that's sort of a current current solution for until the um the other types of of i guess we're talking about the good and bad mev are more kind of integrated in into the protocol where you can have the the decks itself doing um some arbitrage or as as you uh talk to the nebular summit if people haven't seen that we'll post links the the talks from the nebular summit and ecce well i think they're definitely worth worth watching okay well this is uh this has been uh pretty solid return to form for updates from the lab we have um i think we have some folks here from uh from the grants program i'm just taking a look is this a good time to to bring on the grants folks yeah um they go ahead and request i can add them up yeah for those of you uh who are looking to uh join us and talk about what you're working on uh as grantees i also see federico's there from uh this program please request to speak how's it going federico hey kevin hey everyone oh good you you know just trying to stay cool here uh and doing pretty well with it so uh a lot of new uh grants in this the fifth batch and a new website so you guys have some exciting exciting activity happening yeah definitely the so the new website is up and there are definitely a few features that i'd like to highlight um first one is that on our new rfps page there is a form at the bottom of the page where anyone can submit a suggestion for a new rfp which we will review and um determine whether to add it to the existing list um and then we've got all the new branding and brand assets sorted out which i think are really cool and also the grants dashboard i think is one of the core features of the new website um as we designed the website with vector dao with the aim of like being able to display the work grantees and people to be able to find their projects as easily as possible so on there you can click on any grant and it will have a description of the grant and links that will take you to what they're building or what they've built um and then yeah also worth highlighting our new dashboard on d-work where we've crea we've invited all grantees to be able to maintain their own space on there where they can add projects and maintain them as they go between the ones that they still need to complete what they're working on right now what what has been completed already as well um and yeah and so go ahead yeah no go ahead i i was just um you said the the new dashboard on you said did you say vwork i was just trying to find where that um is that dashboard on the the website itself um we've added the dework profile to each of the grantees like descriptions on their useful links but we will definitely add to the website um a link maybe on the resources page that takes you directly to the keyword as well um yeah and there's also a living list of rfps on vwork um so you so grantees when applying can tell which ones still need to be worked on which ones have already been completed and which ones we've already funded and people are working on already so i'm just i'm just looking at the website here and is it the links where it says the um osmo stats and graphs or or maybe i'm just not familiar with do you work with what that is or analytics yeah no so if you go on the grand recipients page and you click on any one of the brands there is a link to their d word profile on there ah okay gotcha um yeah i have to say that the the um the mobile version of the app is surprisingly facile and debt and quick and very easy to navigate through like i you know i am impressed with the um with how well it works on on a phone very cool yeah thanks um and okay just for those of us who aren't familiar what is dwork it's it's a project management platform specifically built for like crypto projects so that there's a bunch of different features which um will be added shortly but right now how the grants program has been using it is just um for grantees to like show the community what they've been working on and yeah because we we often receive questions about you know what what is the progress of a specific brand and this is a great way for grantees to communicate um what they've been working on and what stage of completion they're at yeah this definitely helps with the transparency i had to click through a few recipients but i found one on steak tax or at least a mobile you can uh you can look at their dwork profile and it is just as you said it's a dashboard that shows the progress so far on their um what they're working on which it's it is nice to have that to be able to see it into it i mean that the open auditable aspect of it um is uh yeah very very helpful to to know kind of what's what's being done where they're at that they're not just some kind of opaque you know the money just disappeared or something so that's that's cool great so i think you uh um we've invited a number of folks on today to talk about what they're working on i see uh um caddo money is here i hope i'm saying that right is it caddo or cato to have you come on and come aboard and talk about what you're working on with your with your grant hey everyone yeah you had it uh correct the first time kato got it kado welcome hey how's it going everyone good to see you federico and sunny and nice to meet you kevin likewise so uh so what's on uh what's been on your uh on your desk yeah what's cooking so we are working on a fiat on-ramp as well as off-ramp to osmosis effectively using the axillar bridge and axle usdc we will be able to you know enable customers a fiat capability to use their debit card credit card ach in the us here working on uh wire transfer as well so that you know we can get as much in and out to osmosis well many of us have been waiting expectantly for that day uh and uh so we're happy to have you y'all working on this problem yeah we're super excited about it maybe maybe it might be helpful to give some context too you know we've been talking to sunny now for almost three months probably uh well before uh the tara crash for those that didn't know we were one of the first on-ramps to tara the first to get you know native ust uh on-ramp live and a couple of folks in osmosis ecosystem actually were using the you know ust on-ramp uh directly you know bridging into osmosis and yeah we wanted to make it a little more concrete and finite and solidify you know that that on-ramp experience and obviously terra on ust went when how it did and when you know went down right but um now looking at axillar and actually usdc and uh even even osmo the token itself directly uh soon enough yeah that that is helpful to know um yeah i'm curious curious i guess what what are what have been the big maybe some of the big challenges or one of the main challenge that you've had integrating with osmosis or anything that you can say to sort of illuminate what you've been uh working on absolutely so the uh axler bridge has a bit of a fee associated with it for ethereum and for ethereum usdc that is there's about a 20 fee per transaction we wanted to really eliminate that before even launching you know we wanted to work around that problem and what we've done in a pretty short term here is actually get the routing to work through avalanche and that takes that fee all the way down from 20 to about a dollar fifty uh per transaction so you know that being a huge you know crucial point for the user experience and um you know one that we wanted to make sure was was possible before launching so that being said we're actually pretty pretty close here to having these features live and we're just in some last audits and some last you know internal testing and anybody that wants to get access sooner than later sign up can send it for our beta right on our website that's exciting uh the website is listed on your twitter profile so folks get on top of it if you want to test run this please uh so you you've i'm gonna take the bait you've hinted at how that this is perhaps somewhat imminent um is there is there a ballpark timeline that we could toss out or um yeah we are really want to make sure that this you know experience is top-notch you know we are really trying to work into a new era of on-ramps fiat ramps you know we we always say that you know traditional incumbents are like the v1 you know kind of ramp and we're really trying to differentiate it as a v2 you know fiat ramp and obviously connecting to axillar and osmosis um you know works towards that narrative but effectively the the target the goal is before cosmo verse which is end of september and between now and then we'll be working with folks to again prove that product market fit and uh you know improve the experience as best as possible awesome that that is that's exciting that that is definitely soon and um yeah i imagine that for sure having people getting into the test net here and ironing out as many kinks as possible uh would be helpful so please do check out that um you have the sign up option at kado's website um is there anything that i'm not asking you about or something anything else that you would like to talk about with uh concerning your uh grant project actually one last thing that comes to mind i noticed you actually liked the comment right before uh the spaces you know started here but somebody was asking about you know uh where who can use this you know what countries what what regions right um you know we are basically we service more of a uh you know white list than a blacklist so we have obviously more countries than you know we disallow um there's there's a certain number of them that you know banking and regulatory uh don't don't allow and that's like the ofac list you know certain countries um are just you know unable to be serviced and as much as we'd like to you know we have to follow the rules but ultimately um you know we we have access to over 150 countries uh globally and we're working to get you know close to 150 different payment methods so that you know your local your local credit card debit card can be charged in your in your local currency and um we'll be rolling out more payment methods you know as as we scale here okay i see yeah you're responding to that question that we got before um before we launch the spaces about the country availability and so what if if i'm gonna feed it back to you said that it's basically a 150 country white list there is a black list that includes ofac which i'm not personally familiar with but um probably i don't know some countries that are have really bad reputations i i don't know exactly i'll have to look into that yep exactly um you know these are countries that you know it's it's not just for crypto right it's for you know a lot of other money transmission services um that that we just don't have access to but um you know effectively more countries than not great um yeah and that that sort of thing makes sense we're getting into the bigger global uh i guess power structures and governance on a whole another level there so um i'm sure i'm sure sonny has some thoughts about that um or actually i'm not i have no clue um yeah but this this is exciting i saw i think it was you um uh from caddo that was talking about how you've been working with visa or some other partners um and uh yeah this just sounds like it is going to be a very broad um as you said a v2of of what on ramps what they should be um and um i'm look very much looking forward to trying this out and seeing seeing this available on osmosis if anybody else does have questions uh regarding it please raise your hand or you know stick around we would certainly like to hear people's thoughts absolutely and just on that front you know one thing that we you know really believe in our two core pillars access being able to buy and sell crypto and then utility right using crypto in the real world and being able to you know empower actual usdc on osmosis for real world payments is a dream come true right you know you can stake you can earn rewards and you can go buy your dog food so you know we really believe you know if you invest in digital assets you should be able to spend them as well you know why do we cash out right um you know so ultimately between access and utility um there's there's a lot to unfold still yeah absolutely and uh sunny uh often talks about how we dog food uh protocols but it's also sometimes good to just get dog food exactly sometimes your dog will thank you for that one more than the other absolutely my yeah i don't even have a dog but i can guarantee you would not care about tooling all right well this is uh this has been great uh good i mean insightful and and i look forward to uh any news of developments leading up to um cosmo burst and yeah thanks for coming on today thanks for having us and uh appreciate working with federico sunny all these guys um yeah looking forward to the future sunny did you have anything you wanted to ask or add um no i mean just excited to see it coming live and excited to use it as well yeah it's been it's not that long of a time incoming i mean you guys have been moving pretty quickly but it's definitely a big this is a big step sweet so uh i see we have um we have eco stake is also here if you would like to hop aboard we'd love to uh talk to you as well hey thank you very much for having me yeah for sure welcome thank you um yeah i'll dive straight in so um for those of you that don't know so we're eco steak and we're behind the restake tool so restake is it was primarily developed to take advantage of author z so i'll kind of explain what to see first but auto z lets you grant permissions from one wallet to another so you can technically grant any type of permission but the the core or the initial version of restake was allowing you to grant specifically delegate permissions to validators so it let you grant permission to them to delegate on your behalf specifically to their own validator so what that enabled was validators to act on behalf of their their delegators they're the people staking with them to auto compound their rewards effectively and we do that just through a single uh delegate grant um and take advantage of the fact that when you delegate you also claim your rewards in the same transaction so we built restake out um probably about six months ago and the very very first version was literally just the auto compounding features and providing the tooling that validators needed as well to carry out the sort of compounding on behalf of their and it provided a ui for users to go in see all the validators that supported this carry out basic wallet functions and importantly delegate this or grant this delegate permission to those validators that they wanted to so that's really worked well we've got a lot of validators on board across lots of different chains and another focus that reset has was providing this across as many cosmos chains as possible and generally sort of providing an interchange experience um or making the internet experience as easy as possible for people making it easy to jump between different networks delegate manage your your delegation and so on um so the the second version that we kind of put out very recently was to expand that feature set quite a lot more um provide a lot more interchange features in general so particularly governance voting you can now go in there and you can see all the different proposals and you can vote on those um quite quickly we wanted to add more or z features because it's far bigger than just auto compounding you know there's a huge amount you can do with or c and there's not much tooling out there at the moment that lets you do that so quite recently we've added full grant management so you can go into restake and you can grant permissions to any wallet so thinking for this is that you can go in there and you can grant permissions between your different wallets um you know personally i'm using this i have a hot wallet that i use to do my voting so from a lot of my other wallets because i manage a few um i've granted vote permissions to those other wallets um to let them do the voting just from a single wallet and not have to jump around lots of different ledgers or whatever so we've built out restate now to handle every function on the site and be carried out through auth z as well so you can go in and you could grant say claim rewards uh permission to a different one of your wallets and then you can use that other wallet to go in and claim rewards on behalf of all your other wallets um another useful one is claiming validator commission for any validators that are in here uh you can go in and you can do all your validation management from a single hot wallet and avoid having to get your 15 different ledgers out for example so we've now got quite a nice platform where you can go in and you can manage all these all z functions uh you can do a lot of interchange stuff uh if 4c is supported because that's the other blocker at the moment is that not all chains support it but they're starting to um to really pick up but osmosis has been kind of the core you know the the primary project that we've been dealing with that supports all of these different features is a joy to work with from an orthy point of view and that's kind of where this this grant came into play so what the grant will involve is building out a new core feature to restake um the name is slightly to be confirmed but it's based around governors so using the same idea as we have with the the auto compounding concept i want to be able to allow community members so probably not validators possibly specifically not validators to be able to go in and register themselves as a governor and these governors a user would be able to go onto the site see a list of all of the people that have registered themselves as governors and delegate vote permission to them so conversely with the auto compounding you're delegating you're granting delegate permission in this case you'll be granting vote permission to this uh this governor and then these governors will be able to go on to restake see a list of all of their delegates um people who have granted this permission to them and then carry out a vote on their behalf so what this is going to mean is that as a delegator my validator will be the first person who can vote on my behalf but there'll be another person involved who will be able to go in and vote for me and the idea is that this will create a whole community of people who don't have to be validators but might have a very strong opinions or be very involved in all these different ecosystems you want to be able to vote on behalf of other users and from a user's point of view you know while you might trust your validator to vote on certain things you know validators we make our best effort to be able to vote on behalf of our delegates and how our delegators want us to be voting but there's been a lot of things recently where vote isn't so technical or the proposal isn't such a technical thing but it's more of a you know more of a community thing and how should we go going about doing things and i don't think validators are necessarily always the right people to be doing that so the idea behind governors is to create a whole new class of users that can can be voting on behalf of other people and can create like a community around this um and yeah carry it all out from within restake and the important thing with restake is none of this is restake specific this is all just using grants it's all just based around authy grants these grants can be created anywhere and technically the the validators or the governors could do all of this this automated um voting on behalf of other users from any platform so other wallets can integrate the same concept anywhere they like um so yeah that's the core of it it's a very hard thing to describe especially if people aren't so familiar with all z so if anyone has any questions or anything like that um super happy to answer them well this this is certainly a uh an exciting evolution of the whole realm of governance uh and proof of stake and with in regards to osmosis as well because it's where we are quite active with proposals so thank you for um sinking your teeth into this and i'm curious uh sunny if you have thoughts about this or how this um how this came about um yeah i mean autozy was one of the you know i think one of the most powerful features of uh cosmos sdk right now but it's like in this phase where it's like you know it's there but like you know it needs products to be start being built around it and i think like you know there's a period for like you know three or four months where like ibc existed but no one was using it until like sort of osmosis came around and like sort of kick-started the ibc uh so i think it's like in that similar phase right now with auth z where it's like okay it's there it went live on a bunch of chains but like okay restake is like sort of the first app that's like making heavy use of it and so but it's like exciting to see like okay what are all the other cool things that we can do with it now as well yeah exactly that and i don't even know which way this is going to go like this this governor's feature it could have challenges you know we're gonna have to be careful with people not getting too much vote delegation potentially like there's there's a lot of things that can happen here but these features are out there people can do this now you know i'm voting on behalf of other wallets they're my wallets right now but this this is possible and as with restate as with the auto compounding features you know we wanted to put that out there and see how people picked it up and it's evolved one of the main things with restake is i'm evolving it all the time i'm making sure that we're sort of monitoring how it's being used and if things aren't quite working or if you know validators are getting an unfair advantage or anything like that try and adjust it and make it fit to the ecosystem and it's going to be the same with this governor's feature i don't want to sort of over plan how to implement it really i just want to put in the core features out there see how they get used see how the community picks them up and and see where it goes because like sunny says this is such a powerful feature and it's there's nothing else like it out there from what i've seen and when you actually start using it you know in anger and you start really granting lots of different permissions and using them in lots of different places it's it's so powerful and it's and i love everything that cosmos as an entire ecosystem is is doing um so yeah really really excited to build it um i see uh dan dan b from defiant labs is uh i'm not sure if that's a question or or if you're uh i forget that your grantee but i i i'm glad that you're framing this as a well as an experiment uh in in a way like it's exciting but it's true with any a feature like this if it is very powerful we don't know you know power can be abused and so we have to kind of see how how it plays out for sure i think that's cautious uh even if it's cautious optimism or what have you but that caution makes sense um so yeah still it i think well conversations about this have certainly come up in in the community uh i know i've gotten involved brainstorming and wondering like how much responsibility you know as running a validator you know to be plugged in to all the intricacies of governance and uh what could be adjusted through governance like it can just be overwhelming i imagine there's some over there can be a lot of overlap you know of your technical ability to operate the node and run a great validator but there could also be a lot of other you know i don't know we have a whole representative democracy uh you know in in like the regular whatever political sphere that does this uh hey tom i had a quick question for you if you don't mind please yes so can you explain to me like what uh you know how like a delegate right now can override a validator's vote would that also apply to this like governor model would a delegate be able to override their governor or would they have to undelegate power first if they disagreed great question so i think tom accidentally stepped off but uh adam added back up i've just added him back yeah he's been added back on you there tom i can react again if you need he's uh yeah i think he's connecting i'm yeah sorry sorry guys twist her out exactly the worst time i missed the end of what you were saying kevin oh no just uh dan well dan could you um did you get dan's question i didn't no i missed that okay uh didn't i yeah thanks yeah i was basically asking about would a delegate be able to override their governor's vote like they can with their validator or would they have to undo the aussie transaction in this like envisioned solution it's a very good question so what it will be at the moment your validator carries out a vote and that's the vote that you get by default as a delegator in this case the governor is voting on your behalf so it's it's technically a vote that your wallet has made and it's actually in a different wallet but it is technically a vote that you've made so in the same way that you can vote once and then you can go and vote again and change your vote you'd still be able to do that um but the mechanism gets slightly weird because the governor could technically then go and vote again and that would override your vote that you've made subsequently so it might be that if you vote again we need to kind of automate the process of disabling the grant for the governor um and i suspect you know right now there's two specific types of grants there's a staking grant that allows you to limit which validators you can delegate to and there's a send grant that lets you limit how many tokens that you can send but all the rest of the grant types are just generic grants and there's no other kind of limitations that you can put on them i think what we'll see if this if this you know concept works is we'll see a much more advanced vote grant type being added in the future that's what i'd like to see that would potentially allow you to do more advanced stuff like this um but for the very first version you can either just go vote for yourself and hope that that overrides the governor and they don't vote again or you'd be able to disable the grant to the governor for a period of time and then re-enable it again um after the vote if you really wanted to make sure that you were overriding it so the short answer is yes you can override it but there are intricacies there that we might need to money to play with got it thanks for explaining that well this is i feel like this is definitely a whole another can of worms i mean to see how this plays out and you know how people i guess rally around this feature and who um wants to you know take on the role of a governor i feel like we might have to come back definitely have you have you all back and and you know revisit this topic as it um becomes a living feature yeah i'd love that and i think there's going to be plenty of um plenty of conversations that come up about how we we as an ecosystem want this to evolve and yeah if anyone's interested well hey if anyone's interested in playing around more with author z in general go check out the restake site and uh and have a look at some of the grant features that are there um and b if anyone's interested in potentially being a governor um or has a better name for it than governors i haven't quite decided on that yet um but yeah any ideas any thoughts or whatever just drop me a message and uh yeah reach out anywhere i'm on twitter and discord and things like that i feel like if we spell governor uh um then it might take some of the formality out of it very british i like that awesome thank you yeah thanks everyone for coming aboard and well i guess there are many more uh grant recipients that we'll revisit in the future show and okay sweet thanks everyone thanks everybody uh until next time have a great rest of your day